question by Mr Martin Okafor.
FURTHER QUESTIONS & PRELIMINARY REACTIONS:
- This is a big one. A belief in life after death. Why do the dead person come back not just to one person but sometimes to many families as well as in both sexes? (Engr. Aaron Okorie Ph D).
- Some living legends are said to lọọ ụwa la ṅdụ.
- Though my family is Christian and we don't go to where ịkọ chi is done, it was said my grandfather, Mazi Lazarus Ọrjị Ugwueke, lọtarụ m la ṅdụ. (Ogbuevi Tony.Osy. Ugweke)
- Sir, I guess, this concept is too deep. I have heard about Ilo UWA la ndu. there are lots of complexities in this concept. What about those women that lost their husbands early enough, probably were persuaded to stay back and have kids for her late husband. And in this instance, those kids that came after the husband must have died, how does ilo uwa apply here? When we all know that the kids came through a man not from that family.(Martin Okafor).
- Haaaa!! My bossom brother, are those children born " behind" their fathers not members of their fathers' families?
As long as the uncle of such children take them to the native priest to inquire who incanated into them, there will be an answer.
I have never heard that someone was taken to where to find out " onye lotaru ya" and the result came out negative. The process continues until the egg breaks, which signifies authentic result. I have never heard of rejected result of such an inquiry to call for a repeat. So, ikuwa is one of the numerous cosmovision's ( relationships between the physical world and the spiritual world) that characterize indigenous knowledge. There are instances, the dead man or woman will inform his or relation in a dream that he or she ( the deceased) is coming to the family. If the deceased has a scar or wound the new born baby will have that scar to confirm once lotaru ya, without going to see a fortune teller. Okammuta Ede (Godwin Chukwu Ph D)
Wow! Thank you, Prof. I love your detailed explanation. Sorry Sir, if am being too inquisitive, please I will like to ask one more question on this. Here it goes, the modern of way of ascertaining paternity of a child when in doubt is through DNA test. So, can Nenwe ilo uwa mythology resolve a dispute in the case of infidelity on the part the woman, as it an abomination in Nenwe? Succinctly put, are we expected to have Onye 'lotaru uwa' to a child born out of infidelity? And this instance, when subjected science, will as well prove that the child do not belong to that family. Thank you, Sir. (Maartin Okafor)
ReplyDeleteSir, I think I have heard something like that in the past. I can still remember one occasion when one elder came to the grave side we were digging and exclaimed! was like, ulu cho ra inyi vu ye, enyi vu? Little did we know about the import of that statement. (martin Okafor)
ReplyDeleteOn reincarnation or ịlọ Ụ̀wà, I have two questions, I know Mr Martin has raised them, all the same, I will still ask.
ReplyDelete1. If the dead
reincarnates, how is it possible that a man reincarnates as a woman? In my kindred, I am referred to as Nwarụnta, my grand father. I have been told severally that I am my grandfather who came back, reincarnated. I have searched for answers as to the possibility of a man reincarnating as a woman. I wish I can get an explanation.
2. How is it possible that one person can reincarnate in more than one person in a life time? My grandfather, Nwarunta is also said to have reincarnated in two other people younger than me, one of them, a female too. We are all living.
These are the two situations I have pondered over in my mind for a long time. Perhaps reincarnation is nonexistent.
I am sorry for the lengthy post in an attempt to ask just a question. Thank you all.
Ngozi Nwarunta
Question one, a man gives birth just as a woman gives birth in real life. It is the same in reincarnation. The sex is not important. EJIKE OKEKE
DeleteAda, the truth about iko uwa to know the dead man or woman that reincanated as the new born is proved by experimentation.
DeleteHas any of you witnessed the process? It is not done by assumption. In some cases the process is short ( brief) but it may be prolonged atimes, until the appropriate name is mentioned. The result is signified by the breaking of the raw egg.
Let us not forget that many Christian families do not believe in it and don't go to inquire who reincanated into their baby. However, that does not disprove this traditional wisdom which is usually proved beyond rereasonable doubt.
My family do not participate in it but a fortune teller, whom people consult for Iko Uwa was our neighbor, so I was previlaged to withness it in more than two occasions
Okammuta Ede GODWIN CHUKWU
I know that reincarnation doesn't have anything to do with gender, a male can reincarnate as a female, a female can reincarnate as a male.
DeleteKindly accept your reincarnation as the truth. No doubt, because if they give the reincarnation to the wrong baby, it could make the baby sick, sometimes leads to death.
For the fact that non of these symptoms showed up, means that you were told the truth. (SAM EKWE)
In as much as the bride price of the mother was not returned, how ever the woman produced a child, the child or children belongs to the husband that paid her bride price. At worst, the man can perform the ritual of igbee ru ya mee na ani to cleans the attrocity committed. I don't know if my answer is correct, according to Nenwe Tradition (Ejike Okeke)
ReplyDeleteQuestion one, a man gives birth just as a woman gives birth in real life. It is the same in reincarnation. The sex is not important.
ReplyDeleteConclusion, if you don't agree, then the white men have achieved their aim of making sure you abandon your cultures and tradition. EJIKE OKEKE
Please permit me to laugh. 😂
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for the answers you have given. (NGOZI NWARUNTA)
Good response. However, that do not comprehensively answer the in intended question on 'ilo uwa'. Igbee mee na ali based on my understanding is intended for a woman whom her husband suffers from impotency. So, she could go out there and look for the fruit of the womb as the custom permits. This cannot in anyway address the issue at stake. There is technicality to my question, if you look closely. The atrocity the woman committed based on the question is not yet known to has husband or anybody. So, how do u resolve the issue of reincarnation in such child? Thank you ...MARTIN OKAFOR
ReplyDeleteThe issue of Igbeee Mee lali, you are right. When adultrous woman have children outside wedlock, that is where " lgwa Ekwu" comes in not lgbee Mee lali.
DeleteThe truth is that Ilota uwa is not applicable to everyone in Nenwe culture. That is why some people during marriage" ha achita okuku la Umu". That they marry a woman with her children, whether from Mbala (outside Nenwe) or a Nenwerian. So my brother, the hole you are trying to dig fall into the last category l mentioned. Adoption of children is one of cultural heritages. The question of Iko yeah for the adopted children does not arise. In every rule there is an exception.
Thank you.
Okammuta Ede
Whose wife is she?,. Does the adultery make her a wife to the man she committed it with?. In as much as she still bears her husband name and her bride price is intact, both her and the child belongs to the man and his ancestors. Her punishment as the customs and tradition demands is also intact
ReplyDeleteIf the man chased her away with the Child and returned her bride price, his ancestor will also reject her and the baby
Any child born into the family of a man whose wife's bride price is in tact at the time of conception and birth is known as a member of that family until the husband of the adulterous wife said otherwise if the wife confessed to him. Ancestors makes use of traditional laws set by them not sentiment. It is also the case with science, a child remains your own until a doubt arises and DNA said otherwise. OKEKE EJIKE
Who owns the proceeds of crime? However, this crime is not known yet. Does it mean that the ancestors do not know their own when they see such. And any case that what you said applies, why is it regraded as a crime, when the ancestors can wholeheartedly accept the proceeds as its own? MARTIN OKAFOR
DeleteAncestors knows that it cost a man much to take a wife, care for pregnancy and at the end lose it. They don't reject children. Even God blessed the child Abraham got through adultery. And is still blessing many children gotten through adultery. Human being is human being..EJIKE OKEKE
DeleteMartin, are you questioning the custom or trying to create a new one?
Delete(CLEM EBERE)
When you have a tradition put in place that transcends time n space, there are checks put in place to ensure adherence. My question remains how do you reconcile reincarnation in a traditional setting like Nenwe when infidelity is involved vis-a-vis science?The ancestors are spirits why would they be part of illegality in the first place? Why should there should be reincarnation from a member of that family when such child came from outside the family? On a DNA test, the result will simply tell u that the child came from somewhere else other than the husband. Then traditionally someone from that family will just reincarnated, why should that be?(MARTIN OKAFOR)
DeleteSection 42 (1) of CFRN 1999 (As Amended) provides that "No citizen of Nigeria shall be subjected to any disability or deprivation merely by reason if the circumstances of his birth"
DeleteIn addition to the wonderful contributions already made here. Just see that the Law also protects these categories of persons as much as the traditional practices.
Thank you and to all who contributed.
Nicholas
Counsel thank you for your constitutional reference to the debate. However, the topic was never made for censorship or stigimatization. Rather, it was intended for a healthy debate in furtherance of scholarship. As long as here is an university, issues raised to my own understanding are purely for academic exercise. And nothing, more. I want to know more, hence I enrolled to be taught. Just exactly what our distinguished Professor Okammuta Ede did to to the topic. Thank you, Martin.
DeleteI tried to relate to the topic in relation to deprivation or disability with the circumstances of a child's birth.
DeleteWhere the issues of reincarnation or igọ uwa or ịlọta uwa is looked at and the rational for the spirits accepting a child born 'out of wedlock' is questiined as you did, it is better to look at other surroundings circumstances to appraise the said rational. A religious or biblical perspective had been given as well.
Part of your questions insinuate or seek to ascertain the legality of family members accepting a child into their family when the mother's legal husband is not responsible.
By those your questions, it become imperative that i try to show that even our laws refused to allow a child to be abandoned or not linked to a family as a result of circumstances of his birth.
Blood clearly is not the only way to ascertain paternity of a child. The Spirits also avail a child the opportunity to belong to a family despite the circumstances of his birth.(BARRISTER NICHOLAS UDEH)
Trying to know more and to be convinced
ReplyDeleteIf you don't confess your sins, you die with it. So it is left for the woman to open up on die with her sin. This is how the ancestors responds to sins, just like God. Remember, ancestors are not God and they don't judge outside God standard. Nenwe customs and traditions are Godly...Ejike Okeke:
Dear Nnanna Nwayị (by your reincarnation, that is your name 😃).
ReplyDeleteI am sorry, I am contributing late. I really do not have much to add to the excellent answers already given by our erudite professors. I simply want to approach your question biblically
Matthew 11:14 - "And if you are willing to accept it, he (John) is the Elijah who was to come" (New International Version)
The way some people interprete the above passage shows that you are not alone in the so many 'hows' and 'whys' about reincarnation. Some people's belief in reincarnation biblically is further strengthened by the beheading of John the Baptist by Herod. They say it is a fulfillment of Matthew 7:2 - "...the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
They believe that the beheading of John is a pay back to him in the measure he gave to the prophets of Baal in 1Kings chapter 18. See verse 40.
Now let us assume it is true that way, you can see, Elijah killed so many prophets, but in his repayment, only his one head was taken! Why does he not rise again and again for further beheading until we get the equal number of Baal's prophets that he beheaded? Your kind of confusion! Or do we take it that the current beheading that goes on in the world today are the Elijah coming and going?
Now we are dealing with Nenwe where the belief was strong in reincarnation. My personal belief does not count here.
Be it the Elijah case or Nenwe situation, know it that this is spiritual. And in our penny catechism, we say that the spirit is a living being that has no physical body, we cannot touch it, we cannot see or hear it.
It implies that whatever the spirit does, it does by influence.
If you read the bible commentary about John being an Elijah, it is saying that John came doing things with the same kind of spirit as Elijah.
Saying in Nenwe that one person (now spirit) reincarnated several people means that the people so reincarnated came in the (influence) of the spirit of the reincarnating person (spirit.)
Let us look at it from your profession as a teacher: In a year you influence your students through your teaching. By what you are doing, you are injecting your knowledge into them. If one or two persons are so much in love with your method of teaching, the way you speak, laugh and walk such that even without knowing it they will start imitating you. Others may starting calling them "Ngozi." Some say this is Ngozi incarnate etc.
Reincarnation is different from resurrection. So taking it that you are your grandfather's reincarnation does not mean he resurrected into you. No, rather his spirit influenced your being and that of others just as only you can influence several of your students males and females alike while you still reman one Ngozi Nwarunta intact. (SAI NWAENYA )
[14:02, 30/05/2020] My Wind: Waooo..it has been great to follow the reincarnation lectures which I missed since it started .
ReplyDeleteThanks very much.i am really enriched by the questions and answers. It was though opening other great topics which I know we will certainly do justice to.
On a personal note; I add that though we are a very catholic family we went through the process.From Ngozi to Chinedu I know who reincarnated in each and the ceremonies were rigorously performed by our uncle Ogidi Egwu
MBC fondly called us by our incarnate names. Non of those anti culture and tradition spies reported him to Fada Okobo😛.He would have missed some communions.Jokes apart the catholic church has nothing against that because it was just a belief that didn't exhibit and paganism. The church also believes in reincarnation...It is seen sometimes in the choice of names during beautification and canonisation etc
The church believes in its own way.... (Charlie.mbc@gmail.com)
These are part of the questions from your post
ReplyDelete... . I have heard about Ilo UWA la ndu. there are lots of complexities in this concept.
1. ... " those kids that came after the husband must have died, how does ilo uwa apply here? When we all know that the kids came through a man not from that family.'
2.... " Here it goes, the modern of way of ascertaining paternity of a child when in doubt is through DNA test. So, can Nenwe ilo uwa mythology resolve a dispute in the case of infidelity on the part the woman , as it an abomination in Nenwe?
3. Succinctly put, are we expected to have Onye 'lotaru uwa' to a child born out of infidelity? And this instance, when subjected science, will as well prove that the child do not belong to that family. ..."
. ... There is technicality to my question, .
4. ... So, how do u resolve the issue of reincarnation in such child?
5.... Who owns the proceeds of crime? However, this crime is not known yet. Does it mean that the ancestors do not know their own when they see such.
... why is it regraded as a crime, when the ancestors can wholeheartedly accept the proceeds as its own?
6. ... My question remains how do you reconcile reincarnation in a traditional setting like Nenwe when infidelity is involved vis-a-vis science?
These are parts of the questions that elicited my giving out a legal angle to your questions.
To these, i posit that the ilọta uwa tradition like the Law provided protection to avoid discrimination, disability or deprivation as a result of the circumstances of the birth of a child.
To the debate, like the Biblical angle already provided, i gave the legal angle that any scholar may also look at the legal provision that possibly justify the rational behind that which you seek. (Nicholas Udeh)
Sure, these are my questions. They are geared towards ascertaining the potency of iko uwa vis-a-vis science. Not seeking to question the right of ownership or care of such child. Just the way couples subject their kids to DNA test, can that Nenwe mythology unravel such, especially when it is not in the know. Rights, care and privileges are not in question here. Rather, whether it can be able to resolve issues of the unknown which science can when subjected to its verification. Thank you, Martin
Delete[16:35, 30/05/2020] Dan Dike: Mazi Martin,
ReplyDeleteThe legitimacy here before the living and the ancestors is the bride prize of the woman. Returning of the Ugwo-ewe means renouncing the marriage for one reason or the other.
If a woman conceives a pregnancy through infidelity and unknown to the husband, the ancestors have every reason to believe that the baby belongs to the marriage, hence her bride prize is still intact. DAN DIKE
Really? That's interesting Amaadu. Why is that the woman gets sick or eventually die if she refuses to confess or the husband gets hurt or die if he continues to eat the woman's food without alerting his kinsmen or the relevant traditional bodies for proper action to be taken, as we were told in a typical Nenwe traditional setting. In this instance, does this still signify consent by the ancestors because the husband was not aware? MARTIN
DeleteNow you come, the sin of infidelity rest wholly on the woman. But if she informs her husband and the man ignored to do the needful, and continued to consume her cooking, then the gods will then strike. Again, if the adultery is unknown, to the husband, the woman alone bear the wrath of the gods by deaths or mad in some instance. DAN DIKE
DeleteAbsolutely my brother. This is the major essence of my sojourn in this topic. It's one of our very important cultural norms and values that made us who we are. I was just trying to see if iko uwa can anyway unravel this abominable act in Nenwe tradition, when this happens without anyone knowing it. Or in the case that nothing happens to the woman while she habours this ungodly secret as it should be. It has so far generated very interesting reactions and am sure, more will still come. MARTIN
DeleteI am uncomfortable with the infidelity aspect of this conversation. It is an abomination in Nenwe to my knowledge. Unless the rite of igwà ẹ́kwụ́ was undertaken which is symptomatic to given her permission /licence to do as she pleases in the relationship.
DeleteOur tradition is strong and should be respected for what it is. Regards. Aaron Okorie.